Author Topic: Proposed legislation  (Read 948 times)

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Offline Vauxhallbitz

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Proposed legislation
« on: February 11, 2018, 11:28:05 PM »
I think we all need to have a look at this especially those with modified vehicles, rods and customs.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/road-vehicles-improving-air-quality-and-safety
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 11:31:29 PM by Vauxhallbitz »

Online JD

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Re: Proposed legislation
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2018, 11:18:31 AM »
I would suggest that this is something over which we( the average car owner/driver ie us) have no control & is
the responsibility of manufacturers. It will also give a few government employees something to do & direct
worries away from the cock up being made of brexit(what ever that made up word means) They talk about
moving to Euro 6 when a large proportion of vehicles are already Euro 6 compliant eg Volvo. They also talk of
increasing VED with the new emissions - there's a surprise - get some more money out of the road user. I'm
surprised they don't just ban all cars,buses & trucks - they wouldn't need roads then & think of the savings.
The one thing they have missed is classics emissions - just waiting for the greens to pop up now. Cheers,JD.

Offline Admin

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Re: Proposed legislation
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2018, 08:27:55 AM »
A post by Jim Horn on Facebook for those who don't go there.

Yes we are doomed AGAIN !!!  :-\




Rock n Roll Motors
11 hrs

NEW DFT consultation that could end our hobby by August this year.
Okay, that sounds a bit sensational but it's got your attention and in effect it is true as well.
I will add a link to the consultation and you need to read sections 4.4 to 4.13 as these are the ones that could kill the hobby.
I will also add a link to a facebook page which will tell you how to reply to the consultation, explains the bullet points and gives you them to fire at your MP, as well as drafts of letters you can use if you can't express your thoughts effectively in a letter.
This should be treated as URGENT as the sneaky bastards have only given a 4 week period to reply and have not publicised this. They are supposed to give at least 12 weeks for replies and if they allow less, then they are supposed to explain WHY. They have not done that either.
No arguments or fights on this thread please, basically if you have a car or truck that has been built outside of the 8 point rule and are currently getting away with it being wrongly registered and doing what we do, which is enjoying your ride, then all seems rosy in our own wee world. However, if you get caught and have to rebuild your vehicle to pass a BIVA test and be re-registered, OR are already building towards BIVA with either a radically modified or a kit car, then you will see why this will affect you. Basically, building to BIVA is the legal way to have a radical home built car, and the government provided us with that opportunity. However, what they are proposing is that any vehicle being presented for BIVA test after August this year must pass the current emmissions standards, which is Euro 6. The DFT are saying that there are plenty modern engines to chose from. To meet those standards you will need to use fuel injection, a cat, and ECUs. Many modern cars are built in such a way that you can't use the engine and ECU in a different type of car, and many if not most are designed to be front wheel drive. The cost of compliance will make the projects uneconomical and perhaps beyond the average kit car builder/rodder etc. Many rods and kits take years to build as we lose interest or things get in the way, and once the chassis is done, the engine follows soon after and the car built around that. So, there will be many cars currently "in build" which WERE being built within the regs, and which will now be scrap if these proposals go ahead. The consultation ends 2nd March and will be implemented in August THIS YEAR.
WE ALL NEED TO ACT IMMEDIATELY. Reply to the consultation and lobby your own MP as well as the DFT and secretary of state for transport, Mr Jesse Norman. I've heard reports that his office is being unhelpful and that he wont be available to speak to anybody until AFTER the reply time has expired! Sounds about right doesn't it. So, follow the link to the facebook page and act immediately, even if you are not contemplating building a rod/kustom/kit car just now as you may do in the future. Many jobs rely on our hobby of modifying cars as well and those jobs will be gone.
The relevant parts of the consultation;
Light Duty emissions standards
4.4 As described at paragraph 4.6 above, a new World Harmonised Light duty test
Procedure (WLTP) has recently been introduced. This laboratory test will be used
to measure the regulated pollutants that contribute to air quality, such as
Nitrogen Dioxide and Carbon Monoxide, in addition to measuring fuel
consumption/CO2.
4.5 We are proposing to apply the new WLTP cycle for vehicles approved via NSSTA
with effect for vehicles whose manufacture is completed on or after 1 September
2018.
4.6 We are proposing to apply the new WLTP cycle for vehicles approved via IVA
with effect for vehicles whose manufacture is completed on or after 1 July 2018.
16
This earlier (than NSSTA) date for IVA is to encourage manufacturers to
transition to the new cycle as soon as possible.
Multi-stage build
4.7 Where a vehicle converter is in possession of an incomplete vehicle or chassis
built prior to 1 September 2018 (or 1 July 2018 in the case of IVA) and issued by
the manufacturer with an Emissions approval and an Incomplete or Complete
Certificate of Conformity, the converter will be permitted to carry out a conversion
or addition of bodywork after that date without having to upgrade the engine to
WLTP, as this would be prohibitively expensive, as long as he maintains the
existing emissions control system in good working order.
4.8 More generally, we are proposing that where a converter modifies a massproduced
vehicle which complies with WLTP, he will in principle be required to
retain WLTP compliance by maintaining the emissions control system in good
working order. Increases in unladen weight due to additional bodywork, for
example, and modifications to the frontal area of a vehicle or changes to
aerodynamics will be permitted.
4.9 We are also proposing that where a converter changes a vehicle category, for
example a van converted to a minibus, the compliance required will be that
applicable to the base vehicle on the date of its completion and prior to the
conversion, because to require anything else would be disproportionately costly
for the SMEs involved in such conversions.
Kit cars
4.10 Kit cars and reconstructed classic cars undergoing IVA will not be required to
meet WLTP, given that at present they are not required to meet NEDC or the
latest EU standards. Instead they are tested to age-appropriate MOT standards,
on the basis of the date of manufacture or first use of the engine.
4.11 We are proposing that for kit cars, compliance with the MOT emissions standards
current at the date of registration will be required, despite the use of an older
engine. In other words the current relaxation for emissions according to the age
of the engine will no longer apply.
4.12 Reconstructed (restored) classic cars undergoing IVA will not be required to meet
the latest MOT standards, as long as the appearance of the vehicle is broadly
unchanged and the engine is of the same capacity as that supplied with the
vehicle when it was new.
4.13 When new vehicles were first required to be fitted with catalytic converters
around 1992 (Euro 1 emissions standard), kit car makers typically used older
engines which were not fitted with catalytic converters, hence the justification for
age-appropriate testing of emissions based on date of engine manufacture or
first use. The majority of the fleet is now vehicles up to 25 years old whose
engines are fitted with catalytic converters, providing plenty of choice to the kit
car builder.
The link to the consultation:
https://www.gov.uk/…/road-vehicles-improving-air-quality-an…
The link to the facebook page which you need to join and which will assist you in your replies.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/148944219148084/

Online JD

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Re: Proposed legislation
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2018, 10:34:25 AM »
Hi all, something must have passed me by. What I read in the proposed legislation had to do
with car,truck,trailer, & bus original manufacturers. I must have missed where it included kit
cars & hot rods, & recently(in their terms) modified classics, probably when I went cross eyed
trying to make sense of it. Cheers,JD.

Offline Dobbin

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Re: Proposed legislation
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2018, 08:03:14 AM »
As Craig and Fraser have pointed out, this affects our hobby, our investments and our future use (potentially) of our prized vehicles. I'm with you JD regarding the emissions. That's what I thought this document was all about. I'm all for a cleaner, pollution free environment to enable the butterfly's and bees to flutter by but I just don't think our classic cars, for the limited mileage they consume and ultimately emissions they produce are going to make much of a difference. Consider the pollution created by producing millions of plastic bottles for water, shampoo or engine oil??? At the same time as it could affect our hobby, the government are putting £40M into a funding boost for councils to introduce low emission buses https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-funding-boost-for-bus-industry-in-drive-to-improve-air-quality

A few days ago, I received an email from Craig letting me know that after everything that Craig and I did back in September / October, I thought like many that this had been 'fixed'. Unfortunately, it looks as though the lid is off the bottle and the genie isn't going back in on this one. I'm just not clear as to where we stand with vehicles modified or altered back in the 60's, 70's or 80's. I agree we need to do something to try and stop this unwarranted attack on our hobby but what? If anyone has any ideas or suggestions, yes, we need to write a letter, but is it the same letter (almost) that I sent to the Department for transport? Secretary of State for Transport, magazines etc? Frankly I'm at a loss. If any member has sufficient knowledge or experience of what we should be saying, please let me know. We had little positive response from the SVVF when I contacted them previously on this issue. I've also had a look on the BHVC site but can't find anything there either. if you can find it let me know and post it on the forum for others.
Here is the link to the Vehicle approval and everything you need to know on the government web site. https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval


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Re: Proposed legislation
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2018, 12:34:11 PM »
I'm thinking its like this... each sector of car owners seems to be under attack, the idea is possibly so reduce the number of replies by only targeting certain groups at a time, one group might not bother "helping" another as "it doesn't effect me" sort of thing but what will happen in the end is that there will be nobody left to help you when your sector is attacked. Maybe attacked is the wrong word but it certainly feels like it  :-\

Here is another one of Jim Horns posts from Facebook, it explains it pretty well.

BIVA, 8 POINTS and the new Government Emissions Proposals.

Okay, many have now seen my post informing of the new proposals and have seen the links to the fb page "BIVA Letters", but have many of you answered the consultation document and/or sent an e-mail to your MP, or the Secretary of State for Transport, or the DFT etc.??
Okay, I know the document is 63 pages long and the questionnaire is just as boring, but remember it is only sections 4.4 to 4.13 that you need to read and only a handful of questions that you need to answer on page 7, 8 and 9. You can skip through the rest. Please do it and I'll try to explain below HOW it affects our hobby and NOT just new cars or kits, as many people just don't seem to understand.

So, forget about the other recent consultation about VHI and MOT exemption for "historic" vehicles. That one is done and dusted and becomes law around 20th May. That was PURELY about MOTs for old vehicles, and though it had relevance to the 8 point system, it was nothing to do with vehicle identity, just tax and MOT.

The latest consultation involves new vehicles for sure and kit cars because they are classed as "new" when completed. What many don't seem to understand is that it also covers any vehicle built outside the 8 point rule and being sent for BIVA. The document does mention that "reconstructed classics" would be exempt from the new emissions laws, BUT don't get confused with that! If you build, say, an old pickup outside the 8 points by, say, cutting and clipping the chassis, or "C" notching the rear, then you lose all your points and are building a NEW vehicle which SHOULD go for BIVA, and WILL be subject to the emissions regulations. Okay, I'm sure I'm going to be called a "scare monger" again and some guys will bury their heads in the sand and say I'm talking crap, but, guys, it's time to WAKE UP.
Okay what is the 8 point rule? For those that don't know, here is a very brief and simple guide. Your vehicle starts off with 14 points and you MUST retain at least 8 of those points to retain your vehicle's identity, i.e. it's age related reg number, vin number and V5C, as well as its "historic" status if it is over 40 years old.

So, if you change the following, you lose the appropriate amount of points:
1/ engine....................1 point
2/ transmission...........2 points
3/ suspension.............2 points
4/ steering...................2 points
5/ axles (either one or both, you lose).........2 points
6/ UNMODIFIED chassis or monocoque.....5 points.

FIVE of your points MUST come from an UNMODIFIED chassis or monocoque, there is no way round this. So, if you cut the front end off a truck and weld in a clip, OR C-notch the rear of the chassis to fit bags and get it to lay frame, YOUR TRUCK NEEDS TO GO FOR BIVA. Okay so, people didn't know this and there may or may not be some vehicles running about on a historic V5 ;) and if you have such a vehicle you may well drive it for the rest of your life without consequences, BUT if anything happens, e.g. vehicle is inspected for some reason, or some jealous person reports you, etc etc, then DVLA will revoke your V5c. Your vehicle will then have to pass a BIVA test or it will be a parts vehicle/garden ornament. To go for a BIVA test you have to prove you built the vehicle. Importing one already done doesn't wash. So, you may have to strip it down a bit and take some pics as proof, BUT in most cases, you will at least be able to modify your car/truck to meet the BIVA specs. In the eyes of the DVLA, you have now built yourself a BRAND NEW vehicle. It gets a new vin number, a new reg number (usually a Q plate at this time) and a new make and model name chosen by yourself, as it is no longer seen as, say a 1953 Chevy 3100, because it's now a 2018 whateveryoucallit. NOW you see why these new regs affects you, because you'd need to rip and engine, probably box and entire drive train from some modern piece of shit complete with all ECUs, sensors, wiring, emission control systems etc etc and for most of us this would be an impossibility, not to mention extremely costly. I don't know a lot about all those computer controlled modern cars, but I'm told that some engines and ECUs are designed to run only in the car they were built in or an exact same model, something down to sensing the resistance through the body etc.

So, now you understand the 8 point rule, and how that involves BIVA and now, why the new regs doesn't just involve new cars. Most of the kit car guys would not be able to meet these regs either and the whole industry will collapse and that is far reaching with many jobs lost. Just think of the kit car guys and hot rodders who HAVE been building towards BIVA to keep it legal, and after investing 20 to 30K, they now find that if they can't complete it and pass the test before August, then they have just wasted all that time and money and will never recoup it and never be able to complete the car and drive it. They may have been building that vehicle for years, and once the chassis is done, the engine is often the next thought for getting things all mounted up, so, whilst that engine was legal at the inception of the build, it is suddenly scrap!!

For others who might think they can avoid this, say, an Escort which is a monocoque. So you cut out the tunnel and weld a bigger one in......lost your chassis points... go to BIVA! It is as simple as that. It could possibly involve a great many more people/cars than most could contemplate IF you're thinking of what is classed as a radical build.

In any case, the car hobby is the car hobby, whether you are into Jap stuff, classic Escorts, hot rods, Yanks, you name it, we may all be different but we're all connected by the car hobby. So, when any section of our hobby is attacked by some dim wit half sleeping in the house of lords or elsewhere in westminster, and just agreeing to changes without thinking about it, WE ALL NEED TO RALLY ROUND AND STOP IT. If this bit doesn't affect you, the next consultation, whatever it is, just might, and as the government thins out sections of the hobby, we have less and less guys to lobby, so join together folks and lets kick some ass this time!

Full details of how t go about it in my other post with links to the information etc, a little further down the page.